‘Chaos and confusion’ as Trump’s mass firings impact the basic functions of government – PBS NewsHour

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Geoff Bennett

Geoff Bennett

Laura Barrón-López

Laura Barrón-López

Solveig Rennan

Solveig Rennan

Shrai Popat

Shrai Popat

Ian Couzens

Ian Couzens

Leave your feedbackThe federal government is closed on Monday to celebrate Presidents Day, but the Trump administration’s effort to permanently scale back the size and scope of the federal workforce continues in full force. As Laura Barrón-López reports, President Trump’s actions in his first few weeks also fueled demonstrations on this holiday weekend.Notice: Transcripts are machine and human generated and lightly edited for accuracy. They may contain errors.Geoff Bennett:Welcome to the “News Hour.”The federal government is closed today in observance of Presidents Day, but the Trump administration’s effort to permanently scale back the size and scope of the federal work force continues in full force.As Laura Barron-Lopez reports, President Trump’s actions in his first few weeks also fueled demonstrations on this holiday weekend.Laura Barron-Lopez:This Presidents’ Day…Protesters:This is what democracy looks like!Laura Barron-Lopez:… protests across the country, pushing back against President Trump’s first month in office and what organizers say are his antidemocratic and illegal actions.They call it the No Kings Day protest, even as the president suggested in social media posts this weekend that he is above the law, stating: “He who saves his country does not violate any law.”Democratic Congressman Jamie Raskin responded on CBS.Rep Jamie Raskin (D-MD):The dominant objective of this administration is corruption and lawlessness.Laura Barron-Lopez:Trump’s declaration comes as his administration faces multiple restraining orders from judges, who have in some cases said his actions are likely unconstitutional.One of those cases could be the first test for the U.S. Supreme Court after the president fired the head of a federal agency that protects whistle-blowers. A lower court blocked him. But the Trump administration has asked the High Court to uphold the removal of Hampton Dellinger as head of the Office of Special Counsel.As the White House battles in the courts, billionaire Elon Musk’s government takeover grows. Musk’s team, the so-called Department of Government Efficiency, is seeking unlimited access to highly sensitive Internal Revenue Service systems that hold taxpayer data for millions of Americans.And over the holiday weekend, Musk’s team fired tens of thousands of federal workers across the government. On Friday, the Department of Health and Human Services started terminating probationary employees. That’s expected to total more than 5,000 jobs, including almost a 10th of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s work force.Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin defended the firings on ABC.Sen. Markwayne Mullin (R-OK):We hate that anybody’s losing their job, but at the same time, We know that the debt that we have in this country is not manageable.Laura Barron-Lopez:Cutting 10 percent of the federal work force could save about $800 billion over 10 years, but that’s just a fraction of the $70 trillion that will be spent by the government if current levels hold. Terminations also swept across the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Food and Drug Administration.And in a purge of the Department of Energy that totaled nearly 2,000, hundreds of employees at the National Nuclear Security Administration were also fired. When the Trump administration realized that they had fired engineers who oversee the country’s nuclear weapons stockpile, they scrambled to reverse course.The firings for almost all of the nuclear security workers were rescinded. Of the more than 300 who were originally fired, fewer than 50 were dismissed as of today.Geoff Bennett:And, Laura, the firings seem to be haphazard across these many government agencies. Do you have any more clarity, based on your reporting, as to how these layoffs have been carried out?Laura Barron-Lopez:Yes, there’s been a lot of chaos and confusion.One example, RFK Jr., the new secretary of HHS, verbally rescinded the firings of more than 900 workers with the Indian Health Service. And that’s very similar to the Nuclear Security Administration, as we mentioned.And I spoke to one of those fired workers who was in the field for the Nuclear Security Administration. They ended up getting their job back, but this worker said that they felt as though the firings were heartless and that they became a civil servant because they wanted to serve the country in this way, acknowledging that there’s usually more money in the private sector.Across agencies, we should note, Geoff, that a lot of these workers got the exact same kind of termination letter, saying that their performance was not adequate, which those workers, a lot of the workers that I spoke to said they felt wasn’t fair because they had recent performance reviews that said that they were doing a good job.Geoff Bennett:You mentioned that you have been speaking to these fired federal workers. I know you spoke with an employee of the Department of Veterans Affairs who was let go.And I remember covering back in 2014 the wait-time scandal, where the VA had covered up how long veterans were waiting for care and that had a large part to do with staffing issues.Laura Barron-Lopez:Right.Geoff Bennett:So what’s the impact of these firings on the VA work force?Laura Barron-Lopez:Exactly, Geoff.I spoke to Andrew Lennox, a Marine infantry veteran who deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan, and he started his job just in December at the Veterans Affairs Medical Center in Ann Arbor, Michigan. And Andrew said that getting that job was like coming home.Andrew Lennox, Former Veterans Affairs Employee:I shared an elevator with an Army vet that saw my Marine key chain and, like, slapped my back, called me a jarhead and like, welcome, welcome home. And it just — it felt right and it felt good that I was going to contribute back to, like, my family, my tribe, my people.Laura Barron-Lopez:Andrew worked on exactly those things you were talking about, Geoff, behind the scenes on payroll, billing, managing schedules for doctors and nurses, making sure that he was cutting out that red tape so that way there were shorter wait times for patients, for them to see patients.And Andrew warned that the firings could have a big impact on the Veterans Affairs’ core mission.Andrew Lennox:It’s going to result in worse care or not the quality care that the veterans deserve. It’s going to turn into burnout, fatigue, and just lack and quality care.Laura Barron-Lopez:Andrew told me that he doesn’t feel that he can afford to join any potential lawsuits that may come from this, but he questioned President Trump’s support for veterans because of the number of veterans like himself who have been fired.Geoff Bennett:The Department of Health and Human Services, as I understand it, has also been affected by this. And you spoke with someone at the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services? What did they have to say?I spoke to Arielle Kaine. She was laid off on Saturday over the weekend. A third of her team was fired. She worked with state Medicaid agencies to improve maternal health outcomes and lower costs. And she said that gutting programs like hers could end up affecting the lives of everyday Americans, potentially in a life-threatening way.Arielle Kaine, Former Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services Employee: We are not in this work for a profit. The people that we serve are the most vulnerable, whether they’re senior citizens, whether they’re pregnant women, like my program, or whether they’re low-income people or people with disabilities.That’s who we’re motivated to serve, particularly in HHS. I worry, where do these people go? If they have to turn to the private market or a private health plan to solve all these problems — and they’re expensive patients to cover because they have their high needs — I worry about the impacts.Laura Barron-Lopez:Arielle Kaine said that the pregnant women who rely on Medicaid that her program helped, part of that was just helping them with increasing access to midwives or helping rural hospitals who maybe need to grow their obstetrician units.And so it’s also worth noting, Geoff, though, that the U.S., according to a report from Commonwealth Fund, has a higher maternal death rate than other Western countries, including France and Canada.Geoff Bennett:All right, so two final questions here, Laura.One, do you have a sense, based on your reporting, of when these layoffs, these firings will end, and then what agencies are set to be affected next?Laura Barron-Lopez:So several hundred Federal Aviation Administration probationary employees are being laid off, according to the labor union that represents them. And this is less than three weeks after that midair collision at DCA, which killed 67 people.I’m also told by my sources that hundreds of FEMA workers are expected to be laid off as early as today, and that as well as Pentagon workers. We could see firings happening amongst the civilian work force at the Pentagon as early as today and throughout the week. So this is not going to end with probationary employees.Sources across agencies tell me to expect firings far beyond these employees who maybe only worked for the federal government for less than a year, and that the people that Musk’s team are going to target are workers who have anything to do with diversity programs or climate change programs.Geoff Bennett:Thanks for this really important reporting, Laura. You answered a lot of questions here for us. We appreciate it.Laura Barron-Lopez:Thank you.Watch the Full EpisodeFeb 17By Amna Nawaz, Mary Fecteau, Sarah Clune HartmanFeb 17By Nick Schifrin, Dan Sagalyn, Sonia Kopelev

Geoff Bennett

Geoff Bennett

Geoff Bennett serves as co-anchor of PBS News Hour. He also serves as an NBC News and MSNBC political contributor.

Laura Barrón-López

Laura Barrón-López

Laura Barrón-López is the White House Correspondent for the PBS News Hour, where she covers the Biden administration and the incoming Trump administration for the nightly news broadcast. She is also a CNN political analyst.

Solveig Rennan

Solveig Rennan

Solveig Rennan is an associate producer for the PBS NewsHour.

Shrai Popat

Shrai Popat

Ian Couzens

Ian Couzens

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